Streamerp2p Forum

So, I want to make some money from this thing...

Its a full time occupation and has had a lot of work put in, and I would like to earn my living from it. But I would also like to keep it free for all listeners and most broadcasters. What should I do?

I thought of something along the lines of just charging large-ish commercial broadcasters, and only if they are actually making a profit.

And here are some other idea fragments:
Charge per listener per month.
Charge proportionally to a broadcasters profit.
Charge for customised exclusive station mode, where it doesn't list other stations.
Charge per download for customised versions.
Charge a fee based on the savings a caster is making in server bandwidh costs.

Suggestions please, and not just ones similar to what I have already put here

And also, how do I make it open source and still profit from it?. Does open source actually matter?. It doesn't really matter for most windoze users who don't know what source is, and they make up most of the potential radio audience. Can someone tell me a suitable open source licence? (and I mean tell me which licence after doing the research themselves, and not tell me a url where I can find a list of them and do all the research myself please!)

Your biggest asset is a independent YP directory that "allows" shoutcast connections. Banner advertising, spot commercials when a listener first starts a stream, etc.

Not sure how NullSoft / AOL / Time Warner would react to a large scale p2p - YP alternative based on shoutcast though. I suspect that might take a rather dim view.

No large scale YP service using shoutcast type methods has managed to stick around for any length of time due to legal complications.

What do you mean by 'allows shoutcast connections' ?. The streamer YP only allows connections from the streamer client, and the code is not derived from shoutcast YP code at all. And by 'shoutcast type methods' do you mean they have some sort of patent on streaming servers connecting to a YP server and reporting their presence and listener stats?. The icecast YP server, and all other YP servers work in a similar way I believe.

There was a developer who created a "patch" that allowed shoutcast stations to be listed on a non nullsoft site. A alternative YP directory type service.

Nullsoft had the site closed down The reasons stated were that since they developed and released winamp / shoutcast and provided technical support for the developement of 3rd party shoutcast type applications, they had exclusive rights for a yp type directory service.

Icecast does have a yp service, but you will note that it does not allow stations to connect that use any nullsoft specific software or the shoutcast protocol.

Other "live" directory type services exists for other "formats" but not for shoutcast / nullsoft software.

Go the way of Icecast and problem solved.

"Charge for customised exclusive station mode, where it doesn't list other stations."

That would be awesome.
For example just a simple lightweight .exe that connects to a designated master-peer. It also should not show all stats and peers and stuff.
Just a simple thingie my mum would understand. Play, Stop and that's it.

I would be very interested.

erm driel, this posting is 4 years old (2004) There are a few changes comming up in near future.

A few thoughts:
To get money out of a Web-Community (and streamer is a community based radio network) you need users. No company, professional broadcaster is interested in a network where station count == listener count. They want a benefit of using Streamer p2p radio. The benefit is to get new listeners/more listeners what means getting potential customers in the end. Save money cause of lower hosting costs is another reason for using this.

How you get listeners? How you manage to attract more users using this software?
- easy access (interface, webpage, configuration...)
- content (not 65 stations playing a random winamp playlist)
- OS independend software (not hacks to use it under mac os/linux...)
- good support
- translations (not everyone speaks english)
- extras (extra features)
- fame (features in blogs, it magazines, broadcaster magazines, viral marketing)

Well Boss you should be able to make a living with Streamerp2p

Send me a bill .. maby donations alone wont ever cut it..
how about the top 5 or over 10 av listeners pays x$
or we plege to pay $300/yr caus iam a comercial radio station...
a simple embeded player for the website sounds nice (it could say please stand by, tuning station) but i would always want to permote the p2p site/stations/chat .....and i would pay for that (my station doesen't pay me we quite poor ...except for tower work when i bill me..)
but you would like to predict your earnings i amagin
quit all does outher jobs .. sept bullFighting


Fine does casters that never talk .. dis suposed to be Radio? or musak services
humm how to get some from the Stern/Bell listeners/broadcasters
me ponders


gilly

Hi Iain!
I want to make a living from internet radio too....but it seem to be kind of hard today, when the big media trusts control almost everything .I'm positive that there is hope. SO!....in my humble opinion the solution is: more exposure!!!
First thing....COMPATIBILITY !!!! The solution could be:
1. A plugin for winamp (so the winamp can be able to play p2p content)
2. The ability of streamer to tune and play shoutcast stations (in the same way winamp does)
3. Increase the number of stations available at www.streamerp2p.com (by email them in your spear time, most of the big commercial stations don't know about streamerp2p)
I strongly believe that a plugin for winamp will revolutionize the number of listeners and implicitly the number of stations. I will add a number of streams in near future maybe 10 or more , but as I said we all need a plugin for winamp ,so it can play the content without the streamerp2p client. I believe it can be posted straight on winamp site at the plugins section.
Iain, were in this together ,you need more people to see your web site ,and I need more people to listen to my streams, we just need more tools and that plugin I believe is essential!!!! The yp directory thing is a good Idea , but there is too many legalities involved.....and the big sharks are watching....
All the best !!!
Mario

Please Iain when is the Java version coming, I think a lot of casters will enjoy it when they can put a version on their website

Hi Iain,

I am raised on a business oriented family and I've run our family group of companies since I was 18 yrs old.

I would like to humble my suggestion on how you can make money on this thing....

Complete what you have started and finish it. As a broadcasting hobbyist, I have been testing streamerp2p for a month now and I am still convince that it is still the best way to broadcast except for this java/flash player issue. that is the only bottle neck you got now.

Once developed keep it free to run big without advertisement/payment what so ever. Listeners dont want to pay and broadcasters will be jealous if you do. When it is big and convencing enough, then that is the time you speak of money with the big fish (buyers).

Don't try to run it for life and as big as you want to dream. When it grow enough momentum, sell it! don't run it... you will just be rip off sooner or later for you are not trained to run a business and you will be facing load roars from the big players in the broadcasting industry. Take it from my bad experiences.

Hope this helps somehow to the question on how to make money on this thing..

www.kissyaradio.com

I have recently tried Streamer! I have got to say I am pretty pleased with how it works. There were a couple of features that I didn't know about until I started playing around with it.

I really see a potential for something big.

I have a couple of ideas for making money that I put some thought into.

If I post them here, it might be a long post.

Should I just post it here?

Let me know.

Feel free to post it here. You don't have to ask

Long post:
Be aware of login timeouts! If you write a long text compose it in textpad and copy and paste it here. I had this already in the past. I wrote a long posting and on submit i get a timeout (auto logout) and the text was lost. Even browser history (go back) doesn't bring back the text in the web form

(These are just rough ideas...take it with a grain of salt)

Side Note: Any idea for making money from a social network probably requires
a lawyer these days. (Especially a P2P Music-sharing network)

Going Open-source may provide some legal protection, since the author of the
software that enables users to listen to music was written by the "Community"
-- Not the individual. However, I think that there is enough protection in the
statement: "I just write the software--I have no control over what is done with
it."

----------------------------------------

I have an idea based upon the business model of Ventrilo ® software:

* There is a usable (but limited) Free version.
* The pro version is costly, but allows you to make money as a host of a
service.
* An end-user may pay a small monthly fee to the server host (who purchased
the Pro version)

In a sense this is like a franchise. Server operators pay a franchise fee to
make money.

StreamerP2P already provides a free version. It is a great client, but also
allows small-time broadcasters to enter the field without having to purchase
much bandwidth (but alas the user's IP is traceable).

---------------------------------------
My Example
~~~~~~~~~~
I am interested in sharing Classical music with friends. In the US this is
legal. At the same time, I don't want to put myself at risk by having an
internet "radio station".

I would be willing to pay a small monthly fee to be guaranteed anonymity. I
would also like to shop around for the best provider of this service for the
money. (An example of this is a NNTP service that lets me download any news
article I want from their server, and guarantees that nothing is "logged")

I would think that a monthly fee of $10 to $20 would be acceptable for this
service. You would have to take a survey to see what the market would pay.

--------------------------------------
Step 1) Create software for a "Server Operator" that is an anonymous
"Streamer Gateway". The basic concept is that the Gateway broadcasts 10
or more stations at a time on different ports. Although a legal
authority may request information about customers, there would be no
way to tell which customer transmitted what. (It would also be good
if each Server Operator guaranteed that 10% of its broadcasts
offered "original content" -- to protect the other 90%)

* Take care that each copy of the Gateway software is

A) Licensed (Phones home)
B) Gets updates (to thwart hacking)
C) Has Strict Franchise "agreements"

Note:

The only customers that need technical support would the server-
operators. Violation of Franchise agreement would require server
shutdown and end-user refunds.

Unlicensed (hacked) servers should be somehow blocked from legitimate
network-swarm

Here is what I would envision this "Streamer Gateway" to provide the
end-user:

* Complete anonymity of my broadcast content.
* Low bandwidth guarantee (only one upload stream)
* Ability to switch source from Home to Work, etc.
* Keep station "alive" if source dies with "Technical Difficulties"
message or some other customizable message.
* Agree to partial refund of end-user fee if server is shut down for
extended time.
* The ability to have my stream prompt for a simple password would
be nice to have for special occasions (or if I think I need to
keep a low-profile)

-------------------------------------------------
Step 2) Next version supports the ability to connect to various "genuine"
anonymous servers...

-------------------------------------------------
You need to get a lawyer to protect yourself. Ideas:

Disclaimer:

StreamerP2P has no control of content. This is a social
network protected by free speech. Any broadcasts of a private
individual is considered the sole responsibility of the
private broadcaster.
Any sharing of music is only protected under the
"Fair Use Act" of 1992 provided the following:

* The private individual purchased the music played.
* The music played is only intended for friends--not the
general public.
* No Revenue is generated from the playing of music nor
from ads.

-------------------------------------------------
Another Idea for making money:

(I always like a Win-Win scenario).

Let's just say that this thing gets big. Somehow you avoid any legal issues and people are
sharing music freely, and anonymously. There are no centralized servers. Users can choose to broadcast directly or through an anonymous Gateway--whatever.

Let's just say that I heard something that I really liked and wanted to purchase it. (Note: this is how most internet Radio Stations make money). If I know the name of it and the Album title, etc., I can always go to Amazon.com and purchase it. However, I don't always know this and I am a bit lazy at looking it up.

If I can make the lookup easier by knowing: Approximate time it played, the genre, Perhaps the name of the station that played it, perhaps the composer but not the Album name... I could go to a web database and look it up.

This could be a massive database and would only need to keep about 36 hours of what-played-when.

Let's just say for example, that I could link to Amazon.com directly from this database to make a purchase. The owner of the database could make a large amount of commission revenue. The owner of the database would not have to worry about paying royalties for a radio station since it is just a database of "recently heard" music.

The database would be maintained by listeners--users of the software. Incentive would have to be provided to end users for accurately providing the correct link-for-purchase to the music that they heard. (a user-rating for first most-accurate posting, or a small financial incentive if a purchase is made from correct posting. -- Whatever)

This would be like a "name that tune" kind of thing. People who secretly have "inside" information on what was broadcast would easily get higher ratings.

The latest release would need to have the "name that tune" function built-in, and users would have to provide the link to purchase at Amazon.

Since purchases are made from a user-submitted database (from listeners) you would avoid all the hassles of paying royalties that broadcasters have to pay. (like Pandora, for example)

interesting ideas.

So called "gateway server" would centralize the service and it's easy to shutdown them. This will cause big damage to the whole network. Except you have a large number of gateways scattert arround the world and enough "spare servers" to replace the closed nodes. This would require a lot of money to operate them. Centralized servers are always a easy target.

It's better to protect the individuals by hiding them into a big "cloud" / "forest" of peers. If you get your source stream from more than one peer you can't say who is the initial source. The whole network has to be able to stay full working without centralized servers. For example streamer doesn't require the web based services on streamerp2p.com.

At the current state no user would pay anything to use it. Like many stuff in the internet it has to be free. Streamer exists since 2001 and until now it's a unknown underground network. In the beginning (early years) streamer had good chances to become big. Nowadays there are many competitors on the (p2p) streaming market. It's getting harder and harder to raise streamers profile.

Look at skype. Make it easy (you don't have to mess with technical details, network stuff) and make it good looking you get a userbase. No "form over function" but some eye candy.

At least: It's bad to only support one platform (windows). Broadcasters need a different client and for listeners it has to be easy. Streamer has not many functions (for listeners) and mostly they are not able to find the DJ Chat without help. It's not intuitive enough. To many details.

Because of the design and the protocol used, I assumed that there would never be any central servers.

Just for the sake of argument...Without any changes to the current software or network, Let's just say that I provide a UDP stream of music to my friend, Bob. Bob is the only one that knows about it, so I never have more than one Socket connected. Let's just say he decides to "re-broadcast" this stream on the P2P cloud. Now everybody can listen in. One day when something boring is playing, everybody stops listening. The RIAA can now snoop out Bob's IP address and supoena's Bob's info from his ISP. A lawyer sends Bob a form-letter.

Well, Bob is an idiot, so he responds--admitting guilt. Now Bob makes a deal saying it was my fault for providing him with the stream. I would argue that my sharing of the music was only meant for Bob and not the whole world.

Well, Bob did me no service. Now I am in trouble.

If Bob had 20 workstations in his home broadcasting 20 stations for 20 different people (all natting his single IP address), Bob would forget which stations he is broadcasting and which kind of content each of his workstations are streaming.

Now Bob has some kind of service that might be worth paying for. Why should Bob make money and not the creator of the software?

----------------------------

NNTP has no central server, yet thousands of people pay for advanced NNTP "services". If one server gets shut down, people migrate to another.

(Yes, I know that NNTP is not so much a cloud as a hierarchy--but it is the same concept)

IRC uses central servers. They are not in a "cloud". IRC also does not have much anonymity. Peoples connection can be easily tracked by

outsiders. IRC used to be a very popular venue for sharing music and video--not so much any more.

How to Grow a Service...
----------------------------
Frankly, I was really impressed with the functionality and ease of use of StreamerP2P. The instructions were clear. The settings were obvious.

It connected to Winamp in a flash and I could play music and video from the cloud with my same, familiar Winamp interface.

However...

There was not one Classical Music station to find out there. I would like to see about a dozen with different styles and formats to choose from.

I also did not see any Celtic music, nor bluegrass nor 40's big-band -- not that these are all that important to me.

In my humble opinion, the interface is not where it is at--it is the content.

I would love to broadcast a Classical Music station, However--from what I understand--It would be too obvious to see who is doing it. I don't want to get some letter from the RIAA because of my love of sharing music.

So I don't share.

Those people who share files via NNTP are given anonymity (within reason) and they share a LOT (so I have been told).

Perhaps it is just my paranoia thinking that the only reason people do not broadcast music is because of fear over recent news about the RIAA attacking Internet Radio.

Is there some other reason that content is so lacking on the StreamerP2P network?